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	<title>Comments on: Plato&#039;s Seven Caves</title>
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		<title>By: Lion Kimbro</title>
		<link>http://johnmarshallroberts.com/platos-seven-caves/comment-page-1/#comment-995</link>
		<dc:creator>Lion Kimbro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 00:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Some straight answers, if I may offer them:

&quot;Who put us in chains?&quot;

It&#039;s how we start out.  I compare the question to &quot;Who made a 6 month old baby so ignorant?&quot;

&quot;Are we capable of getting out of them?&quot;

Yes.

&quot;Do we want to get out of them?&quot;

In our heart of hearts, yes.

At any given moment, &quot;no.&quot;

It takes time, but others can help us.  With the interventions of others, we can go much faster.

&quot;Are we the only thing keeping the chains on?&quot;

No;  It takes work.  It can be hard.

&quot;And once we have the chains off, what is the use, considering everyone else still has their chains off?&quot;

Utility is defined by where you are at.  &quot;The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite.&quot;  -- On Children.

&quot;Do you hope it starts a chain reaction, whereby everyone becomes enlightened?&quot;

We can hope, but we most also be realistic.  The transformation of consciousness has taken a long time coming to the present, and it will likely continue forever more.

Countless civilizations form, countless civilizations crumble.  We are bored of being born, we are bored of being reborn.  And yet we must continue on for the high summit;  Emptiness terminates with an eye;  There is nowhere aught but the worlds of higher forms, in accordance with the heart.  Anything else is literally suicide.

&quot;What if no one else removes their chains in pursuit of enlightenment… are you still enlightened?&quot;

No one is accountable to other individuals;  Individuals are accountable to the heart within the heart within the heart -- to the feather of truth by which our souls are weighed.

It is the heart where we must measure.


&quot;I’d like to think we’re in control of whether we remove the chains or not.&quot;

We can apply our efforts where we can imagine to apply them.  But we can only apply our efforts where we can imagine to apply them.


&quot;Also, why would we make shadow-puppets when we realize there’s a better world out there?&quot;

I am not clear what he meant, but if I may guess:  If someone can only communicate in shadow, then shadow is the only language we can speak with them with.

&quot;I’m motivated, by some degree, by personal pride. I’m largely motivated, however, by public wealth and status.&quot;

It is right that you recognize your limitations;  But the soul can always find a lever.  All of life is amplification.

By manipulations, we can satisfy the animal hungers of pride and status, and by our manipulations, we can quiet the beast.  But there is no real happiness here;  Our mind sees what we are doing, and we have lost time (life) if this is what we are doing.

George:  Control of reality, but in service of what?  Divine imagination is all I can see;  We are a thread between two worlds that long for each other.

&quot;My question is, where lies the real world, in or out?&quot;

The spiral forever goes inward towards zero, reaching no terminus, and the spiral goes outward, filling all of space.  Both are real.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some straight answers, if I may offer them:</p>
<p>&#8220;Who put us in chains?&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s how we start out.  I compare the question to &#8220;Who made a 6 month old baby so ignorant?&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Are we capable of getting out of them?&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes.</p>
<p>&#8220;Do we want to get out of them?&#8221;</p>
<p>In our heart of hearts, yes.</p>
<p>At any given moment, &#8220;no.&#8221;</p>
<p>It takes time, but others can help us.  With the interventions of others, we can go much faster.</p>
<p>&#8220;Are we the only thing keeping the chains on?&#8221;</p>
<p>No;  It takes work.  It can be hard.</p>
<p>&#8220;And once we have the chains off, what is the use, considering everyone else still has their chains off?&#8221;</p>
<p>Utility is defined by where you are at.  &#8220;The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite.&#8221;  &#8212; On Children.</p>
<p>&#8220;Do you hope it starts a chain reaction, whereby everyone becomes enlightened?&#8221;</p>
<p>We can hope, but we most also be realistic.  The transformation of consciousness has taken a long time coming to the present, and it will likely continue forever more.</p>
<p>Countless civilizations form, countless civilizations crumble.  We are bored of being born, we are bored of being reborn.  And yet we must continue on for the high summit;  Emptiness terminates with an eye;  There is nowhere aught but the worlds of higher forms, in accordance with the heart.  Anything else is literally suicide.</p>
<p>&#8220;What if no one else removes their chains in pursuit of enlightenment… are you still enlightened?&#8221;</p>
<p>No one is accountable to other individuals;  Individuals are accountable to the heart within the heart within the heart &#8212; to the feather of truth by which our souls are weighed.</p>
<p>It is the heart where we must measure.</p>
<p>&#8220;I’d like to think we’re in control of whether we remove the chains or not.&#8221;</p>
<p>We can apply our efforts where we can imagine to apply them.  But we can only apply our efforts where we can imagine to apply them.</p>
<p>&#8220;Also, why would we make shadow-puppets when we realize there’s a better world out there?&#8221;</p>
<p>I am not clear what he meant, but if I may guess:  If someone can only communicate in shadow, then shadow is the only language we can speak with them with.</p>
<p>&#8220;I’m motivated, by some degree, by personal pride. I’m largely motivated, however, by public wealth and status.&#8221;</p>
<p>It is right that you recognize your limitations;  But the soul can always find a lever.  All of life is amplification.</p>
<p>By manipulations, we can satisfy the animal hungers of pride and status, and by our manipulations, we can quiet the beast.  But there is no real happiness here;  Our mind sees what we are doing, and we have lost time (life) if this is what we are doing.</p>
<p>George:  Control of reality, but in service of what?  Divine imagination is all I can see;  We are a thread between two worlds that long for each other.</p>
<p>&#8220;My question is, where lies the real world, in or out?&#8221;</p>
<p>The spiral forever goes inward towards zero, reaching no terminus, and the spiral goes outward, filling all of space.  Both are real.</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://johnmarshallroberts.com/platos-seven-caves/comment-page-1/#comment-980</link>
		<dc:creator>George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:22:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jmarshallroberts.com/wordpress/?p=281#comment-980</guid>
		<description>This is cool stuff requiring much thought. Like how do I out comment the last comment. After all, my cave is better than your cave, or is it? Fact is, I want your cave as well as mine. Perhaps I&#039;ll sell shares and acquire every ones caves, then I&#039;ll have control of reality, yours and mine.
On second thought, I should know what those other caves are before I jump in. My question is, where lies the real world, in or out?
More input please John.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is cool stuff requiring much thought. Like how do I out comment the last comment. After all, my cave is better than your cave, or is it? Fact is, I want your cave as well as mine. Perhaps I&#8217;ll sell shares and acquire every ones caves, then I&#8217;ll have control of reality, yours and mine.<br />
On second thought, I should know what those other caves are before I jump in. My question is, where lies the real world, in or out?<br />
More input please John.</p>
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		<title>By: K. Michael</title>
		<link>http://johnmarshallroberts.com/platos-seven-caves/comment-page-1/#comment-979</link>
		<dc:creator>K. Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 07:08:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jmarshallroberts.com/wordpress/?p=281#comment-979</guid>
		<description>As I ponder this, I find myself left with a feeling of unavoidable dissociative melancholia, no doubt exacerbated by my bi-polar tendencies. However, I find that a stiff dosage of inane blood letting via irradiated ghouls in the insipid sewers of Fallout 3—which I imagine even Plato would agree is the inevitable conclusion of the basic tenant proposed by the Timaeus and Critias dialogues—eases my existential angst considerably. I suppose I&#039;m one of those unfortunates who would seek the darkest cave where I can justifiably damn the light—humanity is incapable of assimilating, let alone achieving the faintest lucidity of its most elemental allegory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I ponder this, I find myself left with a feeling of unavoidable dissociative melancholia, no doubt exacerbated by my bi-polar tendencies. However, I find that a stiff dosage of inane blood letting via irradiated ghouls in the insipid sewers of Fallout 3—which I imagine even Plato would agree is the inevitable conclusion of the basic tenant proposed by the Timaeus and Critias dialogues—eases my existential angst considerably. I suppose I&#8217;m one of those unfortunates who would seek the darkest cave where I can justifiably damn the light—humanity is incapable of assimilating, let alone achieving the faintest lucidity of its most elemental allegory.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://johnmarshallroberts.com/platos-seven-caves/comment-page-1/#comment-978</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:09:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jmarshallroberts.com/wordpress/?p=281#comment-978</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll admit, I&#039;m struggling.  This is typical, however, of my efforts to understand philosphy.  As an initial matter, I believe most of this world is illusion-based.  We&#039;re all about optics.  Its not a bad thing... I generalize it by arguing that its merely &quot;reality.&quot;

I agree with this idea in general, because as a somewhat education person myself, I feel that I understand the world better than I did before I received my education.  However, as usual, I get tripped up on the dirty details.  And of course, I&#039;m only writing this comment in an attempt to learn more about this.  I&#039;m pretty interested to see how these other caves work...but I can&#039;t imagine there being anymore than 1 cave.

I feel like the most critical part of the story is not about the cave, fire, or reflections, but the chains.  This elicits a number of questions.  Who put us in chains?  Are we capable of getting out of them?  Do we want to get out of them?  Are we the only thing keeping the chains on?  And once we have the chains off, what is the use, considering everyone else still has their chains off?  Do you hope it starts a chain reaction, whereby everyone becomes enlightened?  What if no one else removes their chains in pursuit of enlightenment... are you still enlightened?  I&#039;d like to think we&#039;re in control of whether we remove the chains or not.

Also, why would we make shadow-puppets when we realize there&#039;s a better world out there?  Ultimately, it&#039;s the possibilities presented by the outside world that determine our actions.  I&#039;m motivated, by some degree, by personal pride.  I&#039;m largely motivated, however, by public wealth and status.  I feel like I&#039;m making circular, non-sensical arguments... I&#039;m going to quit.  I&#039;ll remain chained.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll admit, I&#8217;m struggling.  This is typical, however, of my efforts to understand philosphy.  As an initial matter, I believe most of this world is illusion-based.  We&#8217;re all about optics.  Its not a bad thing&#8230; I generalize it by arguing that its merely &#8220;reality.&#8221;</p>
<p>I agree with this idea in general, because as a somewhat education person myself, I feel that I understand the world better than I did before I received my education.  However, as usual, I get tripped up on the dirty details.  And of course, I&#8217;m only writing this comment in an attempt to learn more about this.  I&#8217;m pretty interested to see how these other caves work&#8230;but I can&#8217;t imagine there being anymore than 1 cave.</p>
<p>I feel like the most critical part of the story is not about the cave, fire, or reflections, but the chains.  This elicits a number of questions.  Who put us in chains?  Are we capable of getting out of them?  Do we want to get out of them?  Are we the only thing keeping the chains on?  And once we have the chains off, what is the use, considering everyone else still has their chains off?  Do you hope it starts a chain reaction, whereby everyone becomes enlightened?  What if no one else removes their chains in pursuit of enlightenment&#8230; are you still enlightened?  I&#8217;d like to think we&#8217;re in control of whether we remove the chains or not.</p>
<p>Also, why would we make shadow-puppets when we realize there&#8217;s a better world out there?  Ultimately, it&#8217;s the possibilities presented by the outside world that determine our actions.  I&#8217;m motivated, by some degree, by personal pride.  I&#8217;m largely motivated, however, by public wealth and status.  I feel like I&#8217;m making circular, non-sensical arguments&#8230; I&#8217;m going to quit.  I&#8217;ll remain chained.</p>
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		<title>By: Kim</title>
		<link>http://johnmarshallroberts.com/platos-seven-caves/comment-page-1/#comment-977</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 05:24:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jmarshallroberts.com/wordpress/?p=281#comment-977</guid>
		<description>my personal opinion; one&#039;s level of success of persuasion is equal to one&#039;s degree of willingness to imagine, create, and manipulate.  The skill lies in the insight of being able to determine another&#039;s degree of fear and to create a degree of desire that surpasses it to the extent that the other will at least become curious enough to realize a taste for the unknown.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>my personal opinion; one&#8217;s level of success of persuasion is equal to one&#8217;s degree of willingness to imagine, create, and manipulate.  The skill lies in the insight of being able to determine another&#8217;s degree of fear and to create a degree of desire that surpasses it to the extent that the other will at least become curious enough to realize a taste for the unknown.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph Roberts</title>
		<link>http://johnmarshallroberts.com/platos-seven-caves/comment-page-1/#comment-975</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Roberts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:52:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jmarshallroberts.com/wordpress/?p=281#comment-975</guid>
		<description>What do you mean?  I see everything just the way it is.  I don&#039;t need help - I&#039;m as miserable as I want to be already. If I wanted to relate to other people I would come out of my cave.  Have you seen me out of my cave lately? How did you get my address anyway?

Love you
Dad</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What do you mean?  I see everything just the way it is.  I don&#8217;t need help &#8211; I&#8217;m as miserable as I want to be already. If I wanted to relate to other people I would come out of my cave.  Have you seen me out of my cave lately? How did you get my address anyway?</p>
<p>Love you<br />
Dad</p>
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		<title>By: Lewis Perkins</title>
		<link>http://johnmarshallroberts.com/platos-seven-caves/comment-page-1/#comment-974</link>
		<dc:creator>Lewis Perkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:46:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jmarshallroberts.com/wordpress/?p=281#comment-974</guid>
		<description>John,

As you know Plato&#039;s Allergory of the Cave is one I reference often.  I look forward to reading more of these entries.  Thanks for sharing this with the world.  It&#039;s important for us all to remember that the concepts a change and resistance are not unique to our current position.  Plato&#039;s Cave and your last entry of the Imaginal Cells echo the same theme:  old paradigm&#039;s are often unwelcoming of the introduction of the new.  In fact, many will go so far as to try to kill it.

Lewis</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,</p>
<p>As you know Plato&#8217;s Allergory of the Cave is one I reference often.  I look forward to reading more of these entries.  Thanks for sharing this with the world.  It&#8217;s important for us all to remember that the concepts a change and resistance are not unique to our current position.  Plato&#8217;s Cave and your last entry of the Imaginal Cells echo the same theme:  old paradigm&#8217;s are often unwelcoming of the introduction of the new.  In fact, many will go so far as to try to kill it.</p>
<p>Lewis</p>
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